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* We need YOU! [1]
* Current Goal [2]
* General Goals [3]
* Members [4]
* Mailing List [5]
* Discussion Topics [6]
* Is this WG necessary? [7]
* How does this WG fit in with the Region Groups? [8]
* QoS Routing, bandwidth limiting, port throttling, OSPF regions,
MPLS, etc [9]
* Who will own and run these Backbone nodes? [10]
* Steps to completing a Backbone Node project [11]
* Sites where we can place Backbone nodes [12]
* Conclusion [13]
-------------------------
WE NEED YOU!
As of late 2008, Melbourne Wireless needs people to help design the
next phase of our city-wide network. Enthusiastic individuals with
backgrounds in networking, computer administration and those with
general technical skills should add their name to the Members section
of this page. Be a part of the Free Network Movement today!
-------------------------
CURRENT GOAL
TO SPECIFY THE METHOD FOR CONNECTING NODES THAT HAVE NO LINE-OF-SIGHT
TO OTHER NODES ON THE NETWORK.
PLANNED RELEASE DATE: December 1st 2008
CURRENT STATUS: Gathering recruits
There are lots of nodes that are not linked to the rest of the
network. Newcomers browsing the maps likely see the majority of nodes
close to them are disconnected and feel there is little chance they
can connect either, unless of course they are lucky enough to have
good line-of-sight to a well connected node.
A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE TURN AWAY AT THIS CRITICAL STAGE BECAUSE
THEY PERCEIVE IT IS DIFFICULT TO CONNECT TO THE NETWORK.
We can turn this situation around by giving anyone with an Internet
connection the ability to participate and be a part of the network.
This goal will most likely be achieved using IP tunneling such as
described in RFC2003 [14], though there are many exciting technologies
which may be more appropriate. Technologies that can run on low-end
linux routing hardware such as OpenWRT [15] with only 4MB of RAM
should be favoured, though there is room for multiple complimentary
technologies (eg: platform specific solutions) if they can cooperate
together to provide an enhanced service.
-------------------------
GENERAL GOALS
Participants in the Melbourne Wireless network are coming to the
realisation that peer-to-peer wireless networking at the suburban
backyard level is probably not sufficient to create a Melbourne-wide
network. Likewise, relying on one single high-visibility site such as
Node GHO [16] to connect network clusters across all of Melbourne is
fraught with technical difficulties.
Rather than relying on a single network hub, a cellular model for the
network is needed, similar to the way GSM mobile phone networks are
structured. To achieve this, nodes need to be installed in as many
high-visibility sites as possible across Melbourne. Sites such as tall
buildings, hilltops, towers, etc.
This group aims to discuss ways of setting up and running backbone
nodes in key sites for the Melbourne Wireless network.
This includes tackling the issues of:
* Site Finding
* Technical Requirements
* Deciding on appropriate hardware
* Ensuring QoS [17]
* Legal requirements
* Investigating legal hurdles to putting nodes on someone else's
property
* Insurance issues
* Funding/Sponsorship
* Approaching companies
* Finding people who work for hardware companies
* Human Resources
* Finding skilled people
* Delegating tasks
* Working with Regional Groups [18]
* Writing some rules to determine when resources from WGBackbone
should be allocated to a node
* Deciding on who is allowed to connect to backbone nodes
* Possibly writing some rules to determine this
This group emphasises a communal approach to node-building, but does
not intend to be a replacement for the individual backbone node
efforts that are currently going on.
MEMBERS
Dan Flett [19]
Ryan [20] (Sneeze)
Sui [21]
NodeHDD [22] (Rudi)
NodeGUR [23] (Peter - Melb_AP)
NodeHKF [24] (Mike)
-------------------------
MAILING LIST
Be notified of changes to this Wiki page [25] - either for every
change or only for changes marked as "major".
-------------------------
DISCUSSION TOPICS
Add your comments and questions here! Don't forget to add your name
to your comment.
IS THIS WG NECESSARY?
17/02/04 - I believe we need a group that will be proactive in
explioting key sites for backbone nodes as they become available to
Melbourne Wireless people. A group which is not region-based can draw
on people from all over Melbourne and begin to specialise in building
high-reliability high-visibility nodes. - DanFlett [26]
HOW DOES THIS WG FIT IN WITH THE REGION GROUPS [27]?
17/02/04 - One possible model for this group would be for it to do
the major task of obtaining high quality gear through Sponsorship or
other means. The Region Groups can then decide where they want to put
this gear. - DanFlett [28]
QOS ROUTING, BANDWIDTH LIMITING, PORT THROTTLING, OSPF REGIONS, MPLS,
ETC
All to ensure the network does not become saturated to the point
where it is painful to use. Also to prevent single users taking all of
the available bandwidth in one area at any one point resulting in poor
performance for others.
17/02/04 - Would Frottle [29] be a good QoS [30] app to run on these
nodes? - DanFlett [31]
18/02/04 - I have had discussions with WAfreeNet'ers and several
people overseas who are using Frottle with very good results. - RyanA
[32]
18/02/04 - Only problem is that Frottle is a Linux [33] only
solution, and certainly isn't included in any web standards. 802.11e
[34] and related standards such as 802.15.3 [35] may be of more value.
- TysonClugg [36]
18/02/04 - For those of us who would like to live and work in the
present rather than the future, and with hardware that we have, not
hardware that is not yet available or financially viable.....I think
it's extremely unwise to discount Frottle so abrubtly. I fail to see
why "web standards" apply in this case. We can hold off indefinitely
for something "better" and never actually do anything, or we can work
with what we have now. :- - Cranky Ryan A [37]
18/02/04 - I don't think using Frottle would let any genies out of
any bottles to start with. Even if we get 10 backbone nodes running it
wouldn't be too hard to change them over to 802.11e if and when it
appears. Is 802.11e a hardware (firmware) or software (OS driver) (or
both?) standard? -- DanFlett [38]
18/02/04 - RE: "I think it's extremely unwise to discount Frottle so
abrubtly" - who said not use it? We should bear in mind that not
everyone runs Linux, and if a Windows user wants to participate in the
long-term we should accomodate them. Agreed that in the short-term
Frottle [39] is a reasonable solution. -- TysonClugg [40]
18/02/04 - Perhaps QoS [41] issues/discussion should be moved to the
QoS [42] page. -- TysonClugg [43]
20/02/04 - I don't think it's likely that a "Windows" user would
participate in backbone links unless the link is not windows at all
but rather two AP's back to back with no PC's attached. I don't see us
"holding back" for the sake of a windows user with respect to network
performance, QoS [44], etc. I believe windows users who simply want to
turn their PC's on and off at will are better suited to client nodes.
I also cannot see a backbone node running windows being stable for
more than a week. We need to be realistic even if it's seen by some as
limiting. -- Ryan A Still A Bit Grumpy [45]
WHO WILL OWN AND RUN THESE BACKBONE NODES?
18/02/04 - Not Melbourne Wireless, but the approaches for sponsorship
will probably need to be done in Melbourne Wireless' good name. So
assuming a company will hand over some goods to us for sponsorship,
who takes custody of said hardware? Is this person/entity legally
responsible for the oodles of traffic that would traverse such a node?
-- DanFlett [46]
19/02/04 - Another thought. Backbone nodes would usually be put
together as the result of communal effort and resourcing. So it
follows that these nodes would be owned and run by the people who put
them together. What we need to do is encourage more of this sort of
communal action, and to possibly direct their effors towards the best
possible sites we can find. Perhaps drafting a set of formal
guidelines for the setting up and running of a communal node would
give more people confidence in participating in them. We would want to
encourage as open access as possible at the same time as taking the
necessary measures to maintain good QoS [47] - an interesting juggling
act! -- DanFlett [48]
STEPS TO COMPLETING A BACKBONE NODE PROJECT
* Identify possible site
* Make preliminary enquiries
* Notify WGBackbone participants and/or relevant RegionalGroups [49]
* Secure permission to use site
* Make usage agreement with site owner
* Do detailed site survey
* Determine equipment needed (within bounds of site usage agreement)
* If site access is restricted, determine who is allowed access,
necessary qualifications, etc
* Take panoramic photgraphs
* Do Netstumbler and/or Kismet scan
* Report back to WGBackbone participants and relevant RegionalGroups
[50]
* Gather resources for node
* Pool resources from interested persons
* Possibly do sponsorship deals
* Form management committee or appoint administrator(s)
* Work out network connection agreement for node, based on quality of
equipment gathered, minimum desired QoS [51] and other relevant
factors
* Announce node installation date
* Prepare equipment, install software, etc
* Seek volunteers for help with node installation, if necessary
* Install node
* Consume BBQ'd meat, drink Beer
* Update LocFinder [52]
* Annonunce node status, along with conditions for connecting
* Administrator(s) to continually monitor QoS [53], determine if
upgrades are necessary
* Be on the lookout for further sponsorship deals to improve node
equipment
-------------------------
SITES WHERE WE CAN PLACE BACKBONE NODES
If you know of a site where we might be able to get permission to put
a Backbone node, put it here!
SITE NAME
CONTACT NAME
PERMISSION ASKED?
PERMISSION GRANTED?
POWER AVAIL?
Global Television, Nunawading
DanFlett [54]
No
Not yet
Yes
Somewhere on Wheeler's Hill
DanFlett [55]
No
Not yet
???
Local Radio Station @ Jacksons Hill (Sunbury)
AdrianLodders [56]
No
Not yet
Yes
St Kilda Road high-site
bevans [57]
Yes
Yes
Yes
19/02/04 - As a side issue, do you think it's appropriate that we
have a public list of sites that are being approached? Would it be
better to keep the list of sites off the public Wiki to prevent people
and sites from being scared away? -- DanFlett [58]
19/02/04 - It is probably a Good Idea(tm) to keep a seperate list -
and to that end I can create a seperate private WGBackbone wiki on
this site if you like... -- TysonClugg [59]
22/02/04 - If it proves difficult to obtain permission for usage at
most prime sites, how about some sort of publicity campaign
advertising the fact that we're looking for good node sites? Start it
small - in the other user groups such as LUV, Melb PC User Group, LAN
parties, etc and go from there. Ask people to email a special MW addy,
they can give as much or as little information about the site as they
want initally, it'll be up to us to follow them up. -- DanFlett [60]
24/02/04 - I think there is a lot more to setting up equipment at
prime locations than meets the eye. Things like insurance if the
equipment damages someone elses equipment or burns the building down.
Also site access, if the site ends up being a major backbone location
but for security reason's only a certain person is allowed in and only
when their inside contact is there and only when the moon is in
alignment with Uranus. -- RyanA [61]
24/02/04 - Huhuhuhuh, you said Uranus. I suppose we need to get some
legal advice as to what we can do and as to what we shouldn't bother
trying to do.
The bases we need to cover would be the legal and insurance issues
when:
* Putting equipment on someone elses private premises if you are:
* A private citizen yourself
* A member of Melbourne Wireless yourself
* Putting equipment on a commercial premises if you are:
* A private citizen
* A member of Melbourne Wireless
* An employee of the company that owns the premises
* Putting equipment on a goverment-owned premises
* Same situations as above
What are the hard and fast rules, and what are the rules that might
change from one property-owner to the next?
Also, has anyone looked at Melbourne Wireless getting insurance to
cover these sorts of situations? -- DanFlett [62]
25/02/04 - One avenue we need to keep constantly in mind is our very
own LocFinder [63] database. There are probably quite a few nodes
subscribed as "interested" who have a great location LOS-wise and
don't realise it - they may live on top of a hill but have a few trees
around. We could possibly turn up a few good locations just by
emailing nodes that we don't know to be active yet.
26/02/04 - Agreed. Personally I feel a bit iffy on approaching prime
top-dollar telecommunications locations in an attempt to get tower
space handed to us for nothing on a silver platter. I think it's crazy
to even think we'd have a chance of tower space at say Global
Television in Nunawading. :-
Whenever I see a node in my area in a location I know is quite good I
fire off an email to them. HKR is a prime example of one of these
cases. Darren added himself to the node database, within a few days we
spotted him and noticed he is at the extreme top of the hill in
Heathmont. -- RyanA [64]
27/02/04 - You'll notice I didn't mention the actual tower at Global
TV. There are other possible places... I'll ask them soon. I created
the list above because I think that the people who are doing the good
work of going out and "cold calling" people in prime locations should
be talking to each other. As I mentioned above, I've had second
thoughts about making such a list public, although knowledge of it's
existence should be public. -- DanFlett [65]
03/03/04 - When we do approach companies asking for roof space,
perhaps we should ask what they will ask - that is "what's in it for
the company?". I've not read or heard anything that gives the
impression that Melbourne Wireless as a collective is opposed to
companies setting up nodes and using the network - so long as they
play by the rules and respect the ideals of the network and the
organisation. I can imagine that there are a few companies that would
like to link their offices or off-site locations across Melbourne, but
not require a mission-critical (and therefore expensive) link. Why not
get them involved? And in the process, the Melbourne Wireless network
could score some decent high-visibility sites. -- DanFlett [66]
24/9/04 - Well i thought i might add that it might even be possible
to get funds from a local counsil, government grant or something like
that because i know the knox council funds a LAN event in rowville
because it is ment to be a Youth activity -- Lucus30 [67]
24/4/06 - Do we have any current news on this project?
28/5/06 - Progess !
We have arranged access to two tower sites so far , and are in the
process
now of arranging & commissioning equipment for the sites.
Feel free to contact the commitee if you have equipment or tower
access to donate to the club.
The new sites are in Nunawadding & Heidelberg.
-------------------------
CONCLUSION
We seek to come to a conclusion about how to best facilitate the
creation and ongoing adminstration of Backbone Nodes on the Melbourne
Wireless network.
-------------------------
Back to WorkingGroups [68]
Links:
------
[1] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#we_need_you_
[2] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#current_goal
[3] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#general_goals
[4] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#members
[5] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#mailing_list
[6] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#discussion_topics
[7] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#is_this_wg_necessary_
[8]
http://melbournewireless.org.au/#how_does_this_wg_fit_in_with_theregionalgroups_region_groups
[9]
http://melbournewireless.org.au/#qos_routingbandwidth_limitingport_throttlingospf_regionsmpls__etc
[10]
http://melbournewireless.org.au/#who_will_own_and_run_these_backbone_nodes_
[11]
http://melbournewireless.org.au/#steps_to_completing_a_backbone_node_project
[12]
http://melbournewireless.org.au/#sites_where_we_can_place_backbone_nodes
[13] http://melbournewireless.org.au/#conclusion
[14] http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2003.html
[15] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?OpenWRT
[16] http://melbournewireless.org.au/nodes/view?id=gho
[17] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[18] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RegionalGroups
[19] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[20] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?Ryan
[21] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?Sui
[22] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?NodeHDD
[23] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?NodeGUR
[24] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?NodeHKF
[25] http://melbournewireless.org.au/wiki/?subscribe=WGBackbone
[26] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[27] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?REGIONALGROUPS
[28] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[29] http://frottle.sourceforge.net/
[30] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[31] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[32] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RyanA
[33] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?Linux
[34] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?802.11e
[35] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?802.15.3
[36] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?TysonClugg
[37] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RyanA
[38] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[39] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?Frottle
[40] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?TysonClugg
[41] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[42] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[43] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?TysonClugg
[44] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[45] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RyanA
[46] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[47] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[48] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[49] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RegionalGroups
[50] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RegionalGroups
[51] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[52] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?LocFinder
[53] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?QoS
[54] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[55] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[56] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?AdrianLodders
[57] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?bevans
[58] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[59] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?TysonClugg
[60] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[61] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RyanA
[62] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[63] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?LocFinder
[64] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?RyanA
[65] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[66] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?DanFlett
[67] http://www.melbourne.wireless.org.au/users/?lucus30
[68] http://melbournewireless.org.au/?WorkingGroups
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